- Greetings to all.
- This is the Digit Podcast.
- My name is Laszlo Same, Executive Partner of Future Now, and my godfather, co-founder, is Zoltan Szeker from OD and IT Solutions and Sailing Hangar. Hello, good day everyone. The aim of Digit Podcast is to allow anyone ungratified with sketchy articles and catchy slogans to familiarize with the key trends of digital transformation and IT solutions. Here we will dive deep into life intact. Buyer build dilemma. What's the difference between software decisions, the bio build and company team decisions? Future leadership, what's currently the most sought after or scarce kill of a top manager and is that subject to change nowadays? Management conferences are all about AI and stuff, and I think for a change it would be good to speak about something else. And I'm pleased to introduce three seasoned executives sitting in front of me, the CEO of IT powerhouse attractor, welcome. Barbara Fazekar, CEO of Bopket's Coding, the company which was bought by Attractor around two months ago, and Oshua Galant, CEO of Innovation Training Center Spark Institute, both by attract also, but two years ago, roughly maybe a bit more. And, or she's also serving as a senior in the group.
- Hi, hi everyone.
- Okay, the most actual topic is kind of obvious from the introduction, right? So bobcat's coding is now part of a tractor. I don't know if the name will stay or not and all kinds of questions could come up.
- But what is the strategy behind, maybe we could start with that. Why attractor needs bulk gas coding and why bulk gas coding is happy to become part of attractor.
- I think that for us it was an accelerator. So a tractor has been around for 16 years and we've done things. We went with the market.
- We were able to stay in line with with the market trends and to serve the clients. And in the last couple of years, the market went much, much faster than we had experience with. So we have our plan on where we want to go and what we need to adjust to change from being an enterprise, only serving enterprise to actually serving Smes and enterprise with AI. And then our roadmap, book cuts helps us to accelerate that roadmap to have different mindset of people. So the talent is equal, I think, in terms of software development ability, but the mindset.
- Bob Cards gives us that ability to look at things from a different perspective with this AI native lens on software development versus this enterprise level lens that we've been really successful with in the last 16 years.
- You say the market went faster, which market are you thinking about? The Hungarian market or the global market or the enterprise market?
- Can you be more specific?
- Specifically the technology service market. So if we look at AI adoption in big companies, that speed is less than less impact than, for example, on Atrektor, who is a custom software development service company. And basically to be successful in AI adoption, we in a way cannibalize ourselves a little bit because to be better, that means that our people are faster, which means we can charge less, and then the clients also expect expectations that, okay, five years ago, I spent euro 100,000 on this project, but today's 10,000. And the truth is somewhere in the middle. It's not probably around 40,000 we can do. But then from a business side, those clients are also coming to us with a Chatgpt printout that, okay, here's my big idea and Chatgpt says we can do it. So this is my expectation. So a lot of expectation management is needed as well to bring the clients closer. It's not simply this one page printout, but let's talk about it. Let's go with the mindset. And then in a traditional software development company, you would need a really deep specification to really be comfortable to go ahead and do that project, whereas now clients don't want to invest that time because they believe there is shortcuts and silver bullets with AI to get to their vision. So this is what we need to bridge this gap between secure, scalable technology, but also flexible, dynamic engagement with the client at the beginning? So Attractor is like 16 years old, as you said, and I guess bookcase coding is much younger, Barbara. So do you have that skill in expectation management? You built it up from scratch, right? I mean, the team was behind knowing each other for a while, but the company was brand new. So how do you see this story?
- Yeah, so answering the original question and this one, two in one. So for us, if I have to answer why we did it, the answer in one word is ambition.
- Because when we started this agency, we didn't start it as co-founders because we are Barbara Barbara Barbarat, Cocaine Thomas and myself, we are all like serial entrepreneurs. And our ambition was not to build a lifestyle business, but to build a business that grows. And the same tendency that touched us because of the same things is that the American startup market that was our primary target, mostly in Colorado, slowed down because of AI, but not because technology ate up the market, but because everybody is reading on Linkedin that AI does everything for free in a week. So clients' expectations is this, basically? So they stopped fundraising. So the early stage founders who are coming to us, they don't have the money. They don't have the money to build their software. So when we saw this phenomenon, we decided like mid last year to restructure everything and go to the enterprise segment. But when you want to go to the enterprise segment, you need references. And we got to a road where we had to choose. We go the slow way, like in the upcoming two, three years, we very slowly collect the first two, three enterprise references so we can start heavily investing into this segment. Or we do the more ambitious way is like merging with someone like Atrekto, who already had great references in this segment, add to this mixture what we can bring to the table, the American market experience, and grow bigger together and move quicker.
- Wow, I think that's a very unique match, not a common story. To be honest, that was part of my reasoning why to invite you to digital podcast. And there is another angle which I would like to know more about. It's the leadership angle. So let's imagine mid last year you had this in mind with a few, within a few months you find each other with Atrechtol. Atrechtol also has a clear leadership vision what to do with this new situation on the market. How do you translate this into your teams, into the minds of the people who are working for you? What is the leadership challenge here? And I think emerging acquisitions success is beyond the business deal itself, right? So of course we cannot discuss the details of the business deal, but we, I hope we can discuss the leadership deal. Or if you can share anything else, what was the attraction of the offer from attracto and how did you find a way to make it attractive also for the people in both sides, actually.
- I don't want to overcomplicate it because it wasn't.
- So Bobcat's coding was a small agency and we treated all of our colleagues like adults in this situation. And they knew that strategically we are in this decision situation. And I always updated them about where we are. So like the fact that we are planning for a merger wasn't a secret, that I'm doing these negotiations wasn't a secret and they understood the reasons and they were curious about who's going to be your partner. So it simply we treated them as adults, told them what's going on. And yeah, that's it. And they understood it. And they are excited for the new opportunities here.
- So it's like simple, just like.
- How simple is it in attractiveness? It wasn't as simple as thi. And then the fact that we have 80 people. So we didn't consult with all 80 people that this deal was happening and are they in or not. So then this is one layer of leadership, which is when you have to really believe in something. So I have zero doubt that this deal is the best for both worlds and for Trektor's future. That's why we really wanted to push it through. But not every one of the 80 people will see it that way because human nature and psychology plays into the things that, okay, then why are bobcats coming? They're a threat. And we need to do this from day zero. And it's not a threat. We're actually together. We're stronger. And I think that already in the first few weeks I've been together. So from July 1st, it officially happened. And in the first meetings and team buildings, the vibe was very good. But the challenge of leadership as well is to make those changes to and not always to know for another three years if it's the right decision. And then if you get it right, then it's great. If you get it wrong, then of course everyone will say, Oh, I shouldn't have bought pop cuts. That was the biggest mistake you ever made. But then in five years time, nobody will say, Well, that was the best decision you made. So this is one of the It's cute, right? The image of the leadership is cute.
- And can I add one more thing here? Why not? That when we choose at Rakto and choose is not like we had six equal proposals on the table.
- Choosing means that in the negotiation process, there were a lot of like early stage things that we shut down politely for some reason because we felt that we knew our team and we very early on understood that with a manager with a completely different leadership style than what we represent, the team would fall apart. And that wouldn't be a successful merger, because even if we sign everything, the contracts goes over. But if we know at the point zero that all people will resign under this or that manager. That's not a good idea.
- So that's why we very consciously tried to make this deal with Atrecto because we knew that Shai and his management team will be a good fit. We are all all tech leadership teams.
- So very, very important things. Thank you for pointing it out. Or she's sitting silent and I wanted to bring her into the conversation despite the fact that she was not part of this deal, but she had a similar experience a while ago and also just a little secret that we are sitting here basically because Orshi and I talked about it a few months ago and she saw it through to invite all of you to this table. So you also, you know, work a lot with companies, not only in within attractive, but also across the market that are making some similar decisions or trying to find the right questions more like that. How do you see this story from the outside, if I may. Yeah.
- So whilst you were talking and sharing experience, just one word came to my mind or one sentence that success is about talent and timing. So here at Attracto, we were thinking that we have to act fast of the speed of the what AI both now on the table, like I'm in the Genai transformation, what we can experience in the last one or two years. And we started heavily prepared our teams that something big gonna happen. So we started to make change management programs for the colleagues we have, the 80 people. So we started it in January. And also we asked them how they imagine their role as IT developers in the next few months and then few years. And they said that they wanna step outside from the Delivery position because in the old business model in an IT company that developers are working as hands, basically, and minds as well, but not like so with the Devops, it came on the table that now a developer has to also be a very good communicator, has to be emotional intelligence to see the perspective of the clients and then develop the application. But now with the AI, when it arrived, it's much more important to be more human, let's say, because now we have a very good hand on the right hand, the AI, when we do AI assist coding or the whole mindset is when we are developing a software that's more about thinking of the context, thinking about the needs of the client and the needs of the customers. So then we knew that something is going to happen. And then the right timing came when Barbie and Shai started to talk about the merger. And this is how our people who said that they want to be more like a consultant in the process of software development, that now with the merge that it can be much faster, we can reach that goal.
- And that's the point where I would like to go back to the intro that I made about this. So this was actually a buyer build dilemma for teams, right? Network software. And I'm curious if you did think about the build dilemma or the build part of the dilemma. I'm not trying to make a point for or against what gets coding. That's where I'm trying to be slower and more cautious in the wording. So I'm trying to make a point with the option. So was there on the table a plan for building this change from within? It was an option, but it was a slow option. The option to merge made a lot of sense for many reasons. So yes, we could build.
- But then bringing in those people one by one, then that was not necessarily also an impact on the culture. So it was just hiring people. And then we can hire smart people because there's many, many smart people around.
- More and more, I suppose. Depends. With AI, you can you can cover the gaps. So we could hire them one by one. But then that's just not not just, but it's a trek tour with more people. And then that transformation that we started together with Orshi and education, the change management, and being more solution-focused in our mindset, that's still a one and a half, two year program. That's the one that started in this January. In January. But with the merger, then we actually don't just add people, but we add a different dimension to the culture that we have when we talk about clients. So an internally culture of the company, I think very, very similar. That's why we found that it's a good match. So family focused, really caring about the people. And that's why maybe buying or merging with a company is 100 people wouldn't have been the option. Because now too much cannibalizes who we are. But then bringing in the bookcase team, I think that was a perfect complement in size. So basically 10% of our current size we add. And then that number, I think, is enough that we can complement the culture we have internally, but also accelerate the culture we have towards the clients. And then this is why it made sense. So yes, we get great clients and we have the market. I'm not taking anything away from that value, but the value is the people and what they bring. And we already see on the first couple of projects that we merge the teams that we're already seeing a very positive impact on the way we deal with the clients, but then also very, very similar mindset on how to build. So that is not the difference, but it's the client facing engagement. So the clients are getting much more demanding now and also less patient. And with this merger, we're able to actually be a partner for them and be consultant. Because for 16 years or maybe for 14 years, we were really just an outsourcing company. And we did that really, really well. But if we want to continue being outsourcing company, then it's a road to nowhere. So we had we made the change when I took over as CEO. Conscious change to be an advisory and consulting company. And we're defining still, I'm not saying that we have the 100% answer. We're in the process of defining what does that mean to be a real advisor and consultant in this day. And we think that that is just about giving the client what they need and not what they want. And sometimes that's where we can really push back and make the difference, I think. And one thing to add here that maybe makes it more understandable is that I guess what we did in bobcats coding was kind of a lab experiment. And the reason why I say this, or client portfolio was very specific. They were all United States startups. And let's be honest, that's the most unregulated ecosystem on earth today in the tech scene because their perspective on how to choose a tech stack and all the regulations that they take into consideration. So their approach is that make money as quick as possible, use as many AI as possible. We have in all the contracts that like all AI is allowed to the maximum intent because they wanted speed, wanted profit. But if we step back to Europe, those agencies or companies who had to serve the European clients where there is compliance, where there are regulations, where you have to push everything through 10 levels of, I don't know, German compliance thing. So in this environment, you cannot experiment as much as you can experiment in this American startup ecosystem. And that's how these two things, this is the exactly right moment to come together because now big enterprises, now they have the licenses.
- They have the regulation in-house to use generative AI. Without the knowledge coming from experience.
- Yeah, and or engineers, they had this playground, so to say.
- And now the two comes together and we can bring this extreme value to the enterprise segment.
- And maybe later you can get back to those startups who are successful, the ones who are successful and then they can redo the whole thing with being compliant after, you know, the first clients, the paying clients. I mean, I think it's a very, very interesting time to be on the market, especially for a mid-size company like Attracto because you already have a lot of history, a lot of client relationships, not only clients that are paying, I cannot emphasize it enough on this podcast that the client is not who base the bill, a client is who shake your hand, right? Who shakes the hand. And then you wanna look into the idea after the project as well and after the third freeze project as well. So it's relationship building stuff for business. And the relationship is now very much threatened from both sides because on your side, the technology is changing very fast. The people need to reskill a lot that's always risk. On the client side, the regulations is changing. Their market is changing very fast as well, based on a lot of things in different industries. So actually the relationship is more important, not less important I think. Now the deal is dumb, right? We talked a lot about it. And in terms of communications, this is the end of story, right? You set out a PR announcement and that's it. But the real job, I think, and you have already mentioned it, I think worship as well, that the real job is just starting to make it live and also to not to lose anything in the process that you value. So as I try to prepare, I sort of worded it, how do you keep the strengths that you have after the merger. And for you, I wouldn't say it's a routine process, but you have done it before. That's all I'm saying. So in terms of Spark Institute or in terms of the spinoff that we didn't talk about the chat bots spinoff for Factor X2, after creating these teams or merging these teams, how can you steer them in the same direction? How can you lead them by the same management team and not lose any strengths? Do you have any strengths that you can share for other companies who are on the same road?
- Can I say just Yeah, so I think it's a good way to match the two ways how we can implement small things in a bigger company. So I think it's good to share a project on one person's work time. So one project can be when the new people can be integrated in a team that they are already as a team. And the new member can be like a facilitator or a mentor to bring in his or her new approaches and mindset. And the other half of their work time could be the other way around. So then they can be the follower in the team and follow the processes what the big company already has because this is one of the big advantages of being in a big company that we have processes, we have thousands of hours behind us and 10 plus years experiences. And Attracto was always noted as an innovative company. Oh, we'll talk about it soon. Yeah. So when even mobile application came to the market, Attracto was the first in the first companies in Hungary when we started to make applications. So it's in RDN. Also, we had the AI team. We have been having the AI team for 10 years. So it's good for us to now merge with another company who has also very good innovation track behind.
- Very good. Other secrets? I don't know if it's a secret, but I can tell you what we did. And I think this is a really good foundation. So just because we're 16 years old doesn't mean that we do everything right. And just because bobcats is very popular and has a good traction doesn't mean that they do everything right. We had a workshop together with the whole management from both teams and actually the title, I'm not sure this isn't an x-rated podcast, but the title of the workshop was How Can We This Up? Insert word there. It's four letter, I guess. Yes, it is. And then this was this like radical honesty. So really, how could we It's a fucking great title. And that was the foundation of the workshop. And this workshop was one day, but we have multiple follow ups. And it was a great thing, actually, to say, because we have obviously with the merger, we also have changes in positions as well. So it's not just that we are developers. So there's also different layers of the merger brings to brings to us. And we set out the ground rules, the non-negotiables for for how this can go. So from my side, for example, I really, really wanted the deal to happen, but it was not just my decision. We have owners and the owners also have to buy into the thing. And while they like the idea, then it's also a risk to do it. But then they're supportive. They really supported me, that I see the value in the deal and that it can make us accelerate. But now I also have to pay back that trust from the owners as well, that they supported me in this. And then this was the message that there is no option that this doesn't go well. And then what are the non-negotiables? And we put this on the table. And I think this would from a management, because what she was saying about how the teams interact, that that's good, but it only works if from the very top they also see that we're aligned and we're not fixed in our ways and we're not blocking things that we're really open to being in the best of both worlds. And then with that framework and the non-negotiables, and then then it's good that we can add value at a much deeper level because then we they see that the management is also not fixed and doesn't know everything.
- And I think in this current world, if you say you know everything, then you actually know nothing.
- While listening to Orshin and Shai, I was thinking about the topic that we lost discussed with Russia. And it was because you say that not being fixed on the ways you are doing things and being open to see how can you become better. That is very, very strong trait of good leadership. But we also have a term which is similar, but not the same future leadership and spark programs, meetups and so on talk a lot about this topic, but I sort of like always struggled with it and I wanted to have a broader conversation if only for four minutes. But my basic standpoint is that good leadership, I prefer the term the future leadership is or has been the same for like ages from basically since the time we had larger cultures thousands of years ago that we had to manage socially, the good leadership is the same. And being open to become better was part of it from the very first time. That's my opinion and I want to hear other opinions, okay? But now we talk a lot about future leadership and in a way, I understand that more changes coming, faster changes are coming and so on. So we feel more stressed as a leader. And to be future proof as a company that depends on the leadership, that's a huge stress, I understand. But what do you think, is there anything like a future leadership that we need to teach our next generation of managers, or is just more for password?
- Very good question.
- So thank you for that. I'm trying. I'm trying.
- So yeah, absolutely.
- We have to really put on the table future leadership because now these days, it requires a totally different mindset than before leaders had. And I think it has to force both us here to talk about future leadership. So one is that we can't see the future that cleared it before because there are so many changes happening now that it makes the future uncertain. But what a future leader can do, first of all, can prepare for different scenarios. So I think it's a very important role, what was not highlighted that much before as a leader's role. So we have to imagine what happened if. So you can play around what happened if geologically. That's the what if logic. That's what we were talking about. Exactly. So we can prepare scenarios, what can be done if our business has an effect politically, for example, or by the climate change hits somewhere where we are having a territory, even as an IT company. And we have to see the whole world more complex. So if there is a sociological change happening, it will have an effect on IT as well. So it's more like you have to be a global leader much more than before. So it was, of course, important before as well. But now it's more higher stake. And the second thing that I think future leaders more humble and employees also required that. So it's as shy as that. And Barbie said that we don't know the future. And we still have to be stable and show our employees that we are there and we are strong, but somehow in a different way than before. So not with a big ego or not with saying that what I'm saying, that's 100% is the right. So somehow we have to navigate a ship where storms can come in any time. And then we have to prepare. I think the preparation is the key word here. We have to prepare to those times where crisis can happen in any time. And then if we built a company before which is strong and there is trust there, then we can navigate through those crises easier together with the team where everyone has an ownership there.
- That resonates with me in a way that I've listened to, I think a year ago or maybe two years ago to talk with John Cotter, the father of change management, as they say. And he explained that in the last like 40 years since he has been on change management. The biggest novelty in what he sees as a leadership challenge is that now there is no peace time. There is change or changes all the time. And when he started, he prepared this kit, as he explained, this change management kit that you can put in a box, put on the shelf on the company, not literally of course, but virtually. And when the change management situation comes, you take off the kit, you start to use it, you make the change and you put everything back together and put on a shelf. Now there is no such time as on the shelf. There's constantly one, two, three big changes going on that you need to manage like a Shiva with many hands. And that's what also you are saying, right? And Barbie is very keen on saying something else.
- Because slightly, I disagree if it's fair to say that.
- Been waiting half an hour for that. And so I think future leadership is not a thing. So we hear about it so often.
- But have a teammate.
- Yeah, but like, so for example, wartime peacetime thing. I resonate with that, but for me, wartime is done when the company is on the edge of bankruptcy. Okay, so above that, like It's more serious.
- More serious, yes, than changing the, I don't know, item back structure or whatever. So for me, that's not a wartime. Wartime is done when the basics of survivors are challenged. But so for me, leadership is like, if there are two axes, one is like culture and one is, are we in the war time or not? So when I believe, okay, this time I was a good leader, then life always comes and teaches me a lesson so I could understand that leadership is different if I'm leading a team in China in wartime and different if I'm leading a team in the United States in peacetime because and and how I have to talk and how I have to express myself and how I have to take the initiative, for example, just reflecting on humbleness. For 10 years, I thought being humble is the most important skill of a leader. And then I had to go to a bigger corporation to do a big change management project that has a very different cultural setup than where I used to work before, where humbleness was the absolute sign of weakness. And the leader with humbleness was not taken seriously, and people felt scared, because, so for example, I went into a meeting and asked people's opinion on a topic, and then I got in the feedback form. You are the leader. If you don't know what to do, why are you here? We are here to listen and deliver what you want.
- And even are we safe anymore?
- We are not safe anymore. And so this is one example. Also, just another example, we have about good leadership. For example, simple situation. How does a year closing speech sounds in Eastern Europe and how does it sound in the United States? And now because we worked a lot with the United States. We had a small internal game for how does a credible leader speaks in Hungary and how a credible leader speaks in the United States. That's two completely different piece of cake, I can tell you, because here people want to hear the rude truth. We Eastern Europeans prefer facts. And when, so for example, we had a business year where the numbers were great, but I wasn't super happy with the results. And I started the year closing speech like, guys, it was a good year, but excellent year doesn't look like this. And the same version, if we were in the United States where we grow with 20%, and we got a bunch of new clients, and we were on the national media several times.
- I should have to do, guys, we were like Apple this year. We really turned this thing around. We are best team ever. Like, just keep doing the thing.
- Yeah, the doughnuts are larger and with more sugar.
- Yeah, and so I don't believe that there is such thing as good leadership.
- Like, there is a big, big matrix where you have to find the exact tone you have to set in that exact time, in that exact culture. And I don't think it evaluated so much by time. I just think that we have more occasions when we have to set our tone in a different culture, and there are more occasions when there is peace time.
- Okay, let's see what Shai has in mind.
- Yeah, so I agree and disagree. So it definitely is about the people. As you get bigger, then it needs to be about the people, but not in those one-to-one relationships about their well-being and things like this. So I would maybe use one anecdote from 15 years ago. I was leading a team of 250 people back then. It was just conference and events. Which culture? Which country? It was Hungary, Slovakia, Kenya and India. It was a nice mix of cultures. But before taking over that position of 250 people, I was in a diary competition with an internally to get that role. And I remember clearly that we had to do the SWOT analysis and put together the whole the whole thing. And one of the things I said is that the company is carrying like we use this expression in English like carrying dead wood. I don't know if it's the same in Hungary. We had lots of people who were just there filling the seeds because they were there, they were doing something, but not a good thing. And I put that because I really wanted the position. So I was very bold in my statements. And then actually, but it was true. So it was not like any lies or any bullshit or something was what I really believed. And then after a few rounds of interviews, I got the position. And I remember this situation very clear that the CEO sat down and like shook my hand, congratulated me and pulled out from his briefcase printed version of my spot analysis, put it on the table and said, Here you go, age your first 90 days. Do that. Within that group of people, there was three or four guys who every Wednesday I used to go and play billiards with them. I wouldn't say we were best friends, but we were like, OK. And then I had to sit down with those guys and tell them that, OK, this is the decision that is not performance related and we have to let you go. I met the same guys six months later, almost like best friends, they greeted me in the street because they left that job, they went on, the skills that they learned were really good, and they went on and got a job which was much more suited to them, what they were good at and had huge success. And this little anecdote I think is also important for when leading a company. We need to do what is right for the people as well. And in the moment, they might not always know. But in the moment when we tell them, okay, for example, a QA that I gave. Now you need to also train and learn how to be a developer because a QA standalone role in two years time will not exist. But we invest in you. If you want to invest back, there is a career journey. If not, then not. And then those people, it's very, very intimidating to feel that they're not valued anymor, and then how to manage that, but with a very clear goal. We invest in you, and this is where Oshi comes in in our business, that we really invest in the training and developing our people. But everyone has to be on the same bus. And if we're not, then that's the harder part of leading a larger team, I think, that you might, for example, might have someone who's an amazing person, but they just don't feel comfortable to make that change yet. And then that's also fine. For me, I think loyalty comes up a lot in business and I have my own definition. It's not fully my own. I also stole it from Simon Sinek a little bit, but I adopted it. So this is growing together. So loyalty is not just about sticking around, but it's also about growing together. And I think that if we can do that That weight can just as well stick around. That's right. Yeah. So if you just stick around, then it's not loyal to because the reason I adopted that from Simon Sinek is he said he has the same definition for marriage, friendship, and community. And then that is the growing together. And then that's why I adopted it into a chapter that if we want to grow, we want to be loyal to each other, then loyalty means that we all make that step together.
- We invest the money, the people invest the flexibility, and we also don't just go out and replace them all one by one, but actually we complement them and try and raise them as well.
- I guess, Shai, the very important thing that I would like to underline that is, and I guess this is the key challenge of leadership in these AI times is like clarity. I invest in you if you are getting on the same bus that we have to go together and like keeping this clarity that like we just won't like let people go, but we have to go together. It's happened in bobcats causing as well when we started like this AI transformation that the most genius developer first said, Barbie, what are you talking about? I won't use any AI agent. Like, I'm better than that. And we had to go through this process.
- First, they were.
- Yeah, we had to go through this grief, like losing the ground, like being sad. What's going to happen to us, Barbie? Are we going all loser jobs? No, you won't. But you have to take this seriously. And my job in those years was just announcing that we are an AI native company every two weeks to make sure everybody understood that this is the leadership direction.
- And when I said it the third time, I felt it ridiculous, but we had to say it like for a year so everybody can understand that we are very serious that this is the bus that we are getting on together.
- I know very well what you're talking about. It's also a weak spot for me myself that I kind of have a binary mind. So if something is sad, then it's sad. And it's to repeat it again and again, it's painful for me. But yeah, I need to realize that people are people. You need to talk about it more. And also you need to follow up on your words. So if you say that, hey, this is the deal, same bus, okay, okay. And then a month later you need to follow up, is it happening? And if not, you need to talk again. And that's the consequential part of it. It needs a lot of energy. And I think we also need a bit of energy here. It's very over halfway, so I should have done this 10 minutes ago. Since we have talked like 20 minutes or even more about different parts of leadership, I thought that driving changes has a very good allusion to driving anything else. So I'm very curious about your personal driving experiences, all the kinds of vehicles, well, buses or cars or jet skis or whatever, would you start?
- Yeah, so I'm driving a few things. I'm driving my bike, my stuff, and myself when I go to swim or run. And now, for example, I sat humbled. So at the weekend, I went for a Quaton, which is a swimming and running race. And the organizer was Edit Bertes, who was the mentor of my mother, because my mother is a Maratonist and an Irish woman. And Adit Berta, she did several ultra-marathons. And she is the world record keeper in 600 something kilometer running. And she's also a professor, by the way. And when I asked her that, OK, so what's driving you when you start a race. And then I said, do you think when you were running, do you think that, oh, what if I can't do it? And she said, no, I never have these toads. And I thought, how come? She said, it's not allowed to have these thoughts. I said, OK, then what's yeah, what's your force? And she said, because I wanna know, can I do it better than the last time I did? And she doesn't wanna win against others. She just wanna perform better. And how she said it, it was very humble. And I think we need to show to people through examples that it can be possible, that being humble, being kind, and also being strong, and don't give up things.
- Fascinated you, thinking about your body as a vehicle. Thank you for sharing that. Bored me. Yeah. Thriving is my weak point. I drive a car, but I get my license when I was 18. But to be honest, I started driving a car in Budapest when I was 28. That was my third year as a CEO of Green Folks Academy because I told myself, Barbie, now you're leading an entire company with investors and everything, and you are afraid to drive the car. But I honestly thought taking out a two-ton vehicle to the road is a bigger responsibility than leading the company. So different responsibilities. Yeah, so I saw that there are so many factors you have to take into consideration at the same time. And any mistake can have a deadly effect. So how can we do this as a community? But I had to get over it. And now I'm driving the car. And I also learned to drive a scooter when we lived in Indonesia. That's my only close to death experience. Like the first, because they're.
- I know what you mean. I've been there.
- They just give you the key. And before they gave me the key, they asked me, have you ever ride a motorbike? And I said, Yes, because my husband rides one and I sit behind him several times. So they gave me the issue. That's the finish of writing. And I even had to ask the guy, OK, could you please show me how to turn this on? And he showed me. And there were like two times four lanes packed with scooters. And the first two hours, I don't even remember. Just remember arriving home and having three margaritas after each other. Like I'm literally so I will die. But after I learned it, when I learned the pace of the Indonesian traffic, it feels more safe for me now than driving my scooter in the Budapest traffic because in Indonesia, if you are stupid, you will die. And like everybody has this in their mind that like, look, you have to be careful and everybody's taking care about the other.
- Actually, my biggest hobby outside is motorcycles. So I have a scooter in the city so I can confirm that people get, especially in this hot weather, drivers get very, very stressed.
- I think jealous, I think is the better word. They get jealous that they're stuck in the traffic and you can go. And it happens many times that they just pull out just just to block you. But I also have a big motorbike. And then this is, for me, is the most important part of my year.
- I take off two weeks in the summer, every summer.
- The first week is motorbiking alone, and the second week is family holiday. It's always the same. So this is actually next week. The order, I think I can recommend the subscribe to the order of these two things.
- So next, for example, next week, I'm going for six days alone.
- I will be in France, Switzerland, Italy, and Austria, 2000 kilometers, all in the mountains, phone off, and then my helmet, it's like I can do most of my best thinking when I'm inside the helmet. Really also very deep, critical thinking as well, critical analysis of my own of myself. And then I can come back after the after that, after those rides with a lot of clarity on things. So for me, it's during winter. Very tough. So not right to not write. It really is real. Maybe your husband also experiences it. In winter, it's like a depression, spending most of the time planning the summer journeys. Thank you very much for sharing all this personal stuff. We have very little time left and I'm struggling with the questions to ask. So one decision I made that I will speed up and I will ask you to speed up for the answers, but I wouldn't like to miss some of the questions. So I was a bit not lying, but made a shaky statement when I said it's a bio or build dilemma with teams. It's also, there is a third option that we can call like partnerships or collaboration is the more fashionable word today. How important do you think collaboration is? And these days, especially in the AI transformation that you need to make. And we want to build globally competitive, well, at least we are at the table where we want to build globally competitive businesses or want to help others, the clients to become globally competitive, which needs a lot of innovation, which is another key word for me and also for Digit Podcast. And also like the whole world is trying to be better at this. There is even an ISO guidance that I think is the 56,003 on tools and matters for innovation partnerships specifically. So what, well, not theoretically, but practically, what's your view on that? Shortly.
- Collaboration with who?
- With other partners to serve your clients. So like partnerships in software building partnerships and innovation?
- In a very simple thing, I think it's critical. So especially in our size.
- So there's 80 people, I think, is this very, very tricky size, because we're not small enough that we can change our direction to go in and we're not big enough that we have unlimited funds just to do like spinoffs and things like that. And then now this AI, for example, in data. So we have a very small data experience inside a tractor, but with partners, we have a much bigger capability. And then when we can then find the clients and repeat business, then we can scale that capability in-house. So I think partnerships, it was critical for anyone bigger company to a different way. But in our size, like just sharing, accepting lower margins on certain parts of the business to serve the clients better, really to make sure the clients get what they really need and not just forcing what we have in-house. I can speak from the international business development point of view. If you want to be successful in other markets, that partnership is key. So it's not like Barbara or Shai showing up in Denver saying, hi, we have brilliant engineers in Budapest and suddenly everybody wants to work with us. It's like we have trusted partners who already have their credibility in the local context, in the local culture, and we are joining them and serving the clients with them through them. Because that's how human brain works. Like, you know, like we trust similar people for the first time.
- And that's how we can work ourselves into a market. So only partnership. But the same thing would be true for China, for Singapore, absolutely. So, you know.
- Yeah, so an innovation and in business development, collaboration is crucial.
- So there is no other way in my head how to be successful. So if you want to make something brand new and groundbreaking. It has to be from different perspective. It has to build from different perspective. And it can be now even collaborate with AI, of course, but partnership is more about helping each other as a human, and the knowledge part can be gained from AI as well. OK, so partnerships for capacity, partnerships for credibility and also partnerships for knowledge and perspectives and innovation.
- I want to ask about the international growth opportunities. So we have a lot of listeners, audience that are building companies to grow and also to grow from their native country to the world or maybe to the US, to Europe specific markets. How do you see the growth opportunities here in the technologies sector, I would say, if there is any sector that is not technology anymore. And more specifically, you have experience with the US market, but we haven't talked about other markets of a tractor that you have experienced with what do you see there?
- I would maybe give the European perspective.
- So when I first moved to Hungary, because I'm from the UK originally, when I first moved here, there was this every company had this obsession with going to the US. I think it made sense back then because When was it? Sorry. I moved here in 2006, but then I'm talking specifically when I moved back, which was 2011. So that's 15 years ago. Yeah. And then it was okay because I think there was also a shortage of people and also Hungarians super smart and good pricing can be competitive. Now there is obviously an excess of developers in the US and they're very, very far ahead in its adoption. So this partnering with local companies is good. And then Atrektor is mainly focused on the European market. And then we focus specifically on the UK and Sweden. And then when I was in Sweden last year, I think one of the things that really stood out, I was meeting with one of the universities in Stockholm, and they said that they from the Phd is a graduate every year. 20% leave the country straight away. They go in different countries. And from the 80% that stay, only something like 5% go to the SME sector. The rest go to startups or big enterprise. And then what that means, I think, for companies like us who really want to give value and really want to support our partners is that that big gap of Smes, who in Sweden specifically are very open minded, really believe in technology and have a lack of capacity simply, we can work with them and grow. And I think for me as a CEO, I experienced a lot that it's also a responsibility to bring exciting projects to the team. So developers don't like legacy projects, but the international market is a little bit more ahead. So much more greenfield projects that we can bring in, which means that we can keep our team happy, which means we can attract more people, which means we can grow and then be competitive. It's like a snowball.
- Once it clicks, then it can really keep going.
- We have still a place in the United States, and it makes sense to export our knowledge in the products there. What I want to talk about the experience that I gained in this merger project because we didn't talk only to Attracto. I talked to like, I don't know, Cert Plus companies. And what I experienced is that everybody talks about, I want to export, I want to grow to the United States. But now I have the feeling that people only talk about this and they don't really want to do the work and they don't want to take the struggle that it takes to export things. And I want to talk about this clearl, that it's so going abroad is a lot of work. And yes, it means you will have meetings after 6 p.m. And it means that sometimes you will have to travel with your family. You will have to take the hard decisions. You will work overnight. Everybody while we were doing bobcat scooting said to us like, Barbara, let me share your secrets, how you do this, how you reach this point. And I always sit down with everybody. And in this merger process, I realized that people don't want to do the hard work. And what we did is not a secret. It's just we were very consequently focusing on doing that and we made a lot of mistakes and sometimes we work overnight and traveled a lot. And that's how it happens if you want to this is what you said one time. If you want to go somewhere, go there.
- For example, just give you an example that now Attracto is the professional supporter of AI Summit, one of the biggest AI conference in Europe. And our task is to ask for inner speakers, like big names to come to Hungary and give keynote speeches. And I've been working with a professional who is based in the US in the last seven years. We are doing leadership programs together. And the funny thing is that we never met in person, only online, because we met on Linkedin first, and then I started to did his courses seven years ago. And then a year later, I asked him to give courses, provide courses to our clients. And this is how the partnership started. And now we are here, and I can invite him for traveling here all the way to Europe to give a 20 minute speech. So when we speak about collaboration, this is the base of trust, common work, what we did together. And yes, we had to do the meeting with them at 800 PM. And then I have to ask someone to look after my son in that time. So yes, it's a lot of investment.
- But it's important to invest the energy. I can accrue that absolutely.
- But in both market.
- And it's a fun thing that we actually do the same thing with AI summit. So I also have them with several foreign speakers. And that's another type of growth internationally that they do to invite new audience and new speakers. And that's a snowball type of thing. If you can do more and speak aside, then more audience will come and so on.
- I could have just one reflection what Bobby said. I think it's very, very common trait in people to say like, oh, I'm working so hard. And then this is a really you did. But the example is people say, oh, but I sent 100 emails and nobody replied. Or you really need to see what is the value.
- And normally, the value work is the harder work. And that's one that people don't do. And then do that. So do that. Do the hard work.
- Because you can be busy.
- And I see this a lot as a mistake that people make. I also made the same mistake myself as well many times. Being busy and looking at calendar or my calendar is full or I send this many messages or I did this. I did that. But then actually, is it value? And then no. Focus on the value. And normally the value added work is harder. And normally only 10% of people are doing that. But then you start it and then you get tired and do it again. Because only when you do it third, fourth, fifth time, you're going to get the reward. If you do one trip to the US and then you come back tired, I'm so tired, I'm jet lagged, but I did it and then go again in one year's time, then you might as well not go at all because it's not it's that's not how it works.
- You have to be consistent going, chasing, coming, being in the minds of the clients so that when they're ready to go, they think of Barbie or they think of a trek door because they're not going to remember. Who was that someone who came one time like a year ago now?
- Yeah, that value or volume of work, that's a classic. And I always like to think of it with music. So no matter how high the volume is turned up, a baton will just be bad, right? You only want to turn up the volume on the good songs, which you really like. And that's the same with emails. You don't want to send 130 emails without value. Okay, time is up more than up. I'm very, very grateful for all the three of you, especially Orshi who made it possible that we are here together. Congratulations on the new acquisition to Atrekto and I wish you the very best of it.
- Equal the strengths without losing all the opportunities and see you hopefully at AI Summit with us as well.
- Thank you.
- Thank you. Thank you, see you at ASM.
